1. raedeus I don't understand the concept of "left anarchist."  Who imposes the leftism?  What happens when some crazy rogue agent decides he doesn't want to run a co-op and starts running a business?  It would take some monopoly on power to stop him - that implies an authority that dictates what people can and can't do (ie, a government).
2. raedeus Any non-voluntary system requires a government.  There can be no non-voluntary anarchist system.  By definition, it's just communism then.
3. TacoTruck       raedeus: The left-right paradigm itself is fraught with different interpretations so I think it's suboptimal term.
4. TacoTruck       The meaning of 'left' was co-opted by the establishment about 100 years ago.
5. TacoTruck       If you download the free book from mises.org by Jeff Riggenbach called "The Revisionists" there is a fantastic history of how this came about.
6. --      Notice(anarbot): TacoTruck: http://anarplex.net/l/Fxih1pNupaeD9Sm1HKo (Ludwig von Mises Institute : The Austrian School Is Advancing Liberty)
7. TacoTruck       And the powers that be were effectively able to excise an entire portion of political thought from the language.
8. TacoTruck       riggenbach argues that the contemporary meaning of 'left' became one of two forms of conservatism.
9. TacoTruck       and the original meaning of left, which was less and less state power the farther left you went, was tossed overboard.
10. TacoTruck       So unless the people and language somehow 'take back' the meaning of the term, I think usage of it is best avoided.
11. TacoTruck       Otherwise you fall victim to the neurolinguistic programming coup that was pulled off so long ago.
12. TacoTruck       and waste all kinds of time trying to communicate ideas when this thing is working against you.
13. TacoTruck       Likewise, I always try to make a distinction between state socialism and just socialism.
14. TacoTruck       I have no problem with social provided that it's voluntary.
15. TacoTruck       First thing I do when someone brings up the term is try to clarify if the brand of socialism they're advocating is forced on people with the aggressive use of violence, or if it's something you can voluntarily sign up for.
16. TacoTruck       So boom, hit people first with the Molyneuxs argument for Morality when they talk about socialism. "Do you support the use of violence against me to get me to pay or participate in this system?"
17. TacoTruck       That always makes for some nice fireworks.
18. raedeus TacoTruck: agreed.  I'm an anarcho-capitalist - a convert for more than a decade now.  I'm trying to illustrate the point that a non-voluntarist society cannot be anarchist.
19. raedeus I'm a converted minarchist, myself.
20. TacoTruck       raedeus: Well that's the rub really, when you press the marxoids for the details, it usually involves killing or hurting people that don't want to participate.
21. TacoTruck       I use to meet up with this guy who identified as an anarcho-syndicalist. He was an activist and I enjoyed discussing political theory with him.
22. billstclair     Scratch a maxist, and you'll find a nazi. Or was it the other way around?
23. billstclair     marxist
24. TacoTruck       billstclair: funny. I also  say scratch a (contemporary) 'liberal' or 'progressive' and you'll find an authoritarian.
25. billstclair     Aye. And they have the mandatory schools to propagate their ideology
26. TacoTruck       Anyways when i pressed the anarcho-syndicalist for how his idea of such a society would be achieved...
27. raedeus I was looking at the Center for Stateless Society website.  It's a concept that doesn't make any sense.  I have no problem with communes, unions, - whatever - I have a problem with putting a gun to my head to make me play and telling me I'm more free.  It just defies all logic.
28. TacoTruck       he got this wild look in his eye and talked about some one-time forced wealth redistribution...
29. TacoTruck       sorta freaky.
30. beam    based on different conversations with several people in several different countries which do not believe in their govs, political parties I noticed that the right way to help them to hack/improve their way of thinking, was to introduce them to the Rule of Law after that they start to follow the rabbit to the free/open path/society/world
31. billstclair     Right. Make them all equal by force, and they'll magically stay that way forever more.
32. TacoTruck       raedeus: I think it all comes down to developing a commonly shared concept of just property rights.
33. TacoTruck       Without that commonly shared concept or set of values, then any perceived violation of them will be defined as "aggression" and potential for violent conflict escalates.
34. billstclair     "If you refuse to pay unjust taxes, your property will be confiscated. If you attempt to defend your property, you will be arrested. If you resist arrest, you will be clubbed. If you defend yourself against clubbing, you will be shot dead. These procedures are known as the Rule of Law." -- Edward Abbey
35. billstclair     http://billstclair.com/blog/quote_86.html
36. --      Notice(anarbot): billstclair: http://anarplex.net/l/uU1qS54OM3Wjm8ABF80 (Quote | End the War on Freedom)
37. TacoTruck       great quote.
38. raedeus Agreed on the property rights issue.  First, you have to get people to understand what property is...
39. TacoTruck       One more story about the anarcho-syndicalist related to thate.
40. TacoTruck       He said something like he didn't belive in private property.
41. TacoTruck       So I said "Give me your backpack"
42. TacoTruck       He refused of course, but it was a good way to immediately demonstrate the absurdity of the proposition.
43. TacoTruck       He went on to quickly revise his statement to include things that a person could carry I guesse, it's been a while.
44. billstclair     Ain't no liberty without property.
45. raedeus Nice quote by Abbey.  Somehow, people recognize if you take a gun, stick to their heads and take their wallet - that's theft.  If you give the wallet to a homeless person that's worse off, they sympathize but still recognize it's theft.  If four of you are discussing this proposition,
46. TacoTruck       Sure, it's the "how many men" argument.
47. raedeus and 3 of 4 vote to make it okay to steal your wallet and give it to a homeless person - they still recognize the problem.  But extend to millions of people allowing the government to steal your wallet, and the logical breakdown occurs.
48. TacoTruck       Once you get enought people involved and obfuscate the violence with enough steps, people stop seeing it for what it is...armed robbery.
49. raedeus Injustice by millions is still injustice.
50. raedeus True dat...
51. TacoTruck       Take modern day America for example. This is a nation of war criminals.
52. billstclair     And I have not been able to discover how the disconnect is taught, but it is almost universally believed
53. TacoTruck       There are millions of them who have directly participated in and carried out criminal wars of aggression.
54. TacoTruck       Yet these people are never held responsible, in fact they are lionized, given discounts at stores, and suck further off the teat of the state.
55. billstclair     No matter how criminally they act, most people worship the authority of the police
56. raedeus billstclair: I think the problem is based in early education.  People regurgitate - they take the notion of the government as a given.  They fail to think independently to recognize the cognitive disconnect.
57. TacoTruck       I just watched a documentary called "Water Time" by this surfer guy who used to write screenplays for Miami Vice when he wasn't living the life of the endless surfer.
58. billstclair     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
59. --      Notice(anarbot): billstclair: http://anarplex.net/l/NYp8R513OKRhT1NB2IA (Milgram experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
60. TacoTruck       It's interesting because you can see the reactions people have when he starts showing them evidence that the JFK hit, 9/11, OK City are all being lied about by the Main Stream Media.
61. TacoTruck       You can download it for free at this site if you plug in an email banditobooks.com
62. --      Notice(anarbot): TacoTruck: http://anarplex.net/l/mCnJtPssZ59GMXdzO5g (Welcome to Allan Weisbecker's Bandito Books)
63. raedeus I'll have to check that out.
64. billstclair     You run into a brick wall as soon as you question the official story. People stop hearing you.
65. TacoTruck       billstclair: It must be done delicately, that's what I've found.
66. raedeus The Milgram experiment is why I believe that there can never be anything for mankind that's close to true freedom on a mass scale.  As was stated earlier, freedom is a DIY project.  You can't overcome the masses of statists that don't even realize they're statist.
67. TacoTruck       raedeus: Right, it's the fish that never notices the water around him. The water being a metaphor for state violence.
68. billstclair     At best you get to characterizing the state as a "necessary evil". Until that is deprogrammed, there's no hope. But even that won't solve the problem. The majority of the human race are sheep. They WANT to be told what to do.
69. TacoTruck       billstclair: In my more cynical moments it's hard not to agree with that.
70. TacoTruck       I had a discussion with a friend the other day about this phenomenon in the Bitcoin world.
71. TacoTruck       Actually they were some statements by a Hungarian bitcoin programmer or activist.
72. raedeus Very true.  People don't want freedom - they want convenience.
73. TacoTruck       Where he talk about this persistent portion of the population that appears to actually 'want' to be scammed.
74. billstclair     And imaginary safety
75. TacoTruck       again and again.
76. TacoTruck       "Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies", wasn't that a Fleetwood Mac song? ;)